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Suffering.
- Suffering.
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Suffering.
praise_yeshua > 06-17-2016, 03:27 PM
Everyone suffers. I mean everyone. While life is getting easier and easier for the vast majority of the peoples that live on this earth. If anyone lives long enough, they will suffer. Everyone will suffer.
Sooner or later, bad or unpleasant things are going to affect us all. Often times, people that suffer, love to share that suffering with others. Some of you may have heard of the old saying "Misery loves company". At times, I believe suffering is almost like a virus or a cold. If you have an ounce of Empathy left in your body, when people suffer. You'll suffer.
While we all will soon suffer, its often for many varying reasons. I'd like to list a few and maybe we discuss some of them.
1. Chance.
Now, I know you've heard it time and time again. That "God has purposed all things". I'm here to tell you. That is a lie straight out of the devils mouth to fallen humanity. I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings. Its just the truth. If we can't see things for what they are, then we are hopelessly lost in our illusions of reality. God put things in motion on this earth a long time ago. You might have noticed that this world is "spinning" on an axis just like the clay on the potter's wheel. However, most people greatly misunderstand the metaphorical work of the potter. While the clay is spinning, the potter observes the object of His creation. He molds or "works" with the clay.....He's not "stamping" the clay into a form. He's working with the clay. If you ask any potter, they'll tell you same thing. Every piece of clay is a little different. The process is a little different. Just imagine taking all these works of clay and somehow throwing them all on a single spinning wheel! All being a little different. Now, God isn't limited. He's not, but the clay is. So we have all these imperfect pieces of clay, all a little different but all similar.... moving. Changing. I said all that to say this. The Potter doesn't always directly put His hands to the clay. He doesn't. In fact, the clay was "marred" In Jeremiah 18:4.
Sad to say, things just happen sometimes. They just do. Often when I say that, Christians want to tar and feather me. They seem to find comfort in some ideal that everything is for a specific purpose. They are often surprised to know that the Bible actually uses the word "chance". Its found at least 5 times in the Scriptures. One of the more significant times in
Ecc 9:11 Again I saw that under the sun the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to those with knowledge, but time and chance happen to them all.
The truth is..... we sometimes suffer because of chance.
If you run a stop sign and by chance, there is someone coming at the exact moment you ran the stop sign. You're going to suffer. Even if you don't break the law and run the stop sign, by chance.... you just be at the right place at the wrong time. Someone might just not hit their breaks fast enough to keep from running into the back of your vehicle. You stopped when you should have. They didn't.
Chance is unpredictable. No rhyme or overarching reason.
How do we deal with chance? I think we can find an answer. That answer is........We pray. If I may borrow the words of James. "We have not, because we ask not."
Even though we're nothing but clay, we have the privilege of talking to the Potter directly. :
Personally, I try to ask the Lord everyday of my life to protect those I love from harm. I don't always pray like I should. That's my fault. I should pray more. How can we expect God to always do what we want done for us.... if we don't care enough about it ourselves to just.... pray?
I'll list some more in other threads. Thanks for reading... -
RE: Suffering.
Andrew > 06-21-2016, 11:08 PM
"Chance is unpredictable. No rhyme or overarching reason."
I agree about praying being the answer to suffering. James 4:13 Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray.
But yes, there is a reason for suffering. It happens because God will it to, and wills it for his purpose. Suffering happens for a reason
"We also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. Romans 5:3-4"
"Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him." James 1:12
Also remember JOB. God gave Satan the ability to make this righteous man suffer for a specific time, a time within whatever God allowed Satan. He also orchestrated Satan NOT being able to harm Job himself. So instead, Jobs children were killed by Satan. All 10 of them. BUT through this suffering, which I know you quoted Eccl. so I will also, we know that in that book it explains there is a time and a season for EVERYTHING under the sun. Time to die, time to plant, time to be born and a time to die etc...Ecc. 3:1-8. So that tells us that when Jobs children were killed, it was THAT TIME. It was The time God ordained. He lets Satan have limited power. Job in his righteousness responded-“Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return". The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”
So he's aware that though Satan was the instrument, it was the Lord who took his children away, ultimately. Because it is the Lord who is ultimately in control. Nothing is left to chance even if we don't understand it. Satan rules the world FOR NOW because GOD ordained that time period. Satan operates his evil powers within the reigns of Almighty God
James 4:13-5:20 13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” 14 [a]Yet you do not know [b]what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. 15 [c]Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.” 16 But as it is, you boast in your [d]arrogance; all such boasting is evil. 17
This is because God has ordained a time for everything, including suffering. He is in control of all things. "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." Romans 8
It might not feel like it is being used for good, for your good...as of yet. But as the evidence God provided us to forcee shows, you'll see him molding us, knitting our innermost being together during the re-birth. Somewhere in Numbers it mentions adding water (baptism) to the clay, molding it into something of the exact opposite it was prior. Something of viable use now for his good purposes. -
RE: Suffering.
praise_yeshua > 06-22-2016, 12:04 AM
(06-21-2016, 11:08 PM)Andrew Wrote: , which I know you quoted Eccl. so I will also, we know that in that book it explains there is a time and a season for EVERYTHING under the sun. Time to die, time to plant, time to be born and a time to die etc...Ecc. 3:1-8.
This is because God has ordained a time for everything, including suffering. He is in control of all things. "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." Romans 8
It might not feel like it is being used for good, for your good...as of yet. But as the evidence God provided us to forcee shows, you'll see him molding us, knitting our innermost being together during the re-birth. Somewhere in Numbers it mentions adding water (baptism) to the clay, molding it into something of the exact opposite it was prior. Something of viable use now for his good purposes.
Hi Andrew, Good to have you here and thanks for joining this conversation. I'm not going to deal with everything you wrote at the moment but just a few things to see if I can narrow the conversation down a little bit.
I believe you misunderstand what Solomon wrote in Ecc.... 3:1:8. Yes. There are times to do certain things. There are times do thing we should do. However, not everyone does what they should do. For example.
There is a time to kill. Some kill when they should not. Some refuse to kill when they should. Yes, there is a purpose to every time. Yet, not everyone does what should be done. They do as they please and God judges man accordingly. Take for example, say someone is "killed before their time" by some murderer who randomly choice someone he saw wearing something he just happen to like at the "time". Are you saying God ordained such a specific "time"? How would you address the family that is grieving? I can tell you, most times, there isn't an answer. There really isn't. God can overcome such things in our lives. The God of all comfort can heal our broken hearts.... HOWEVER, there isn't any divine purpose to every evil action taken by man. There were a lot of people that lost children during the time of Job. There was only ONE Job. Jesus witnessed much the same thing in the life of the widow that served Elijah.
Luk 4:25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
Luk 4:26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.
You can't take the life of Job and apply it every single event that takes place in humanity. I know we want to believe that but this just blinds us from the truth. We want to see some divine purpose where divine purpose is often broken.
The overarching thought witnessed in Ecc 3:1:8 is God ordination of right and wrong. God purpose in creation. God's purpose in seasons and etc. Its NOT about every single second/choice being ordained by God from the beginning.
Thank God for Romans 8, However, not all things are good. God can work all things TOGETHER for our God. God can overcome all things. We have to let that happen in our lives. This doesn't mean that 1 plus 1 equals two. Its a LOT more complicated than that...
Could you tell me what "chance" means to you? The writer of Ecc clearly says that "chance" happens to them all. There are five times in the Bible were the word "chance" is used. You seem to deny what the Scriptures declare. You seem to be saying that chance.... really isn't chance....
Please clarify. Thanks -
RE: Suffering.
Andrew > 06-23-2016, 04:43 AM
(06-22-2016, 12:04 AM)praise_yeshua Wrote: Hi PY
Thank you for the kind welcome and your reply.
I am not picking up on using these quotes too well so thanks for your patience. I'll bold your words. Then I am going to translate Ecc 3 and maybe take liberties to add a partial bible verse to help give it context.
PY-"The overarching thought witnessed in Ecc 3:1:8 is God ordination of right and wrong. God purpose in creation. God's purpose in seasons and etc. Its NOT about every single second/chioce being ordained by God from the beginning. "
Ecclesiastes 9
11 I have seen something else under the sun:
The race is not to the swift
(races are ordained for all people not just the “swift or fast”. All humans will run the race )
or the battle to the strong,
battles are ordained for all humans, not just the strong/swift aka good fighters. All humans will do battle eventually so put on the full armour of God)
nor does food come to the wise
Food is not ordained ONLY for those who "hold knowledge properly" aka the wise. Food is ordained or purposed for every human
or wealth to the brilliant
Wealth is not ordained only for highly smart humans. Wealth is ordained for all at his ordained time
or favor to the learned;
Favor is not ordained only for the learned, it is for both learned and unlearned
but time and chance happen to them all.
But time will unfold for all people...as it is ordained. He is the alpha and the omega.
God’s ordained at one point, or many times, all of the above^^^ (eating food, running the race, etc..)
12 Moreover, no one knows when their hour will come:
God’s ordained it, NON ONE KNOWS when their hour will unfold
As fish are caught in a cruel net, or birds are taken in a snare,
SO PEOPLE ARE TRAPPED BY EVIL TIMES THAT FALL UNEXPECTEDLY UPON THEM
13 I also saw under the sun this example of wisdom that greatly impressed me:
14 There was once a small city with only a few people in it. And a powerful king came against it, surrounded it and built huge siege works against it.
15 Now there lived in that city a man poor but wise, and he saved the city by his wisdom.
You see the chance is just used in the context of us understanding we will not know when we will eat, when we will do battle, etc..He's ordained a time for everything, and it will fall unexpectedly upon us (see the underlined). . And he re-iterates this theme woven throughout Ecclesiastes 3 with verse 12-13 above.
So these things happen to all. They are ordained to happen to all ahead of time. He proposed it to be so at a specific time and season. That song is coming to mind…turn turn turn...
Ecclesiastes 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time (to every purpose under the heaven). This is the theme re-iterated throughout the chapter. That God is in total control, but these purposed events will unfold as unexpected to us but yes, ultimately used for good to those who belong to him.
PY-Thank God for Romans 8, However, not all things are good. God can work all things TOGETHER for our God. God can overcome all things. We have to let that happen in our lives. This doesn't mean that 1 plus 1 equals two. Its a LOT more complicated than that...
I agree, it is complicated. And agree He works all things together for Good to those who love him. And he overcomes all things. All things are subjected to his purpose, at the time he's ordained it, the season he's ordained it. All things per scripture.
Could you tell me what "chance" means to you? The writer of Ecc clearly says that "chance" happens to them all. There are five times in the Bible were the word "chance" is used. You seem to deny what the Scriptures declare. You seem to be saying that chance.... really isn't chance....
Please clarify. Thanks
Chance as defined by God in this text, is our perception of many of the unexpected events which will inevitably, fall upon all of us. For some reason, no matter what I try, my posts are sticking together instead of being separate boxes. I'll catch on...hopefully ~ -
RE: Suffering.
praise_yeshua > 06-24-2016, 08:53 PM
(06-23-2016, 04:43 AM)Andrew Wrote: You see the chance is just used in the context of us understanding we will not know when we will eat, when we will do battle, etc..He's ordained a time for everything, and it will fall unexpectedly upon us (see the underlined). . And he re-iterates this theme woven throughout Ecclesiastes 3 with verse 12-13 above.
How does this explanation fit with
Luk 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
Quote:So these things happen to all. They are ordained to happen to all ahead of time. He proposed it to be so at a specific time and season. That song is coming to mind…turn turn turn...
I don't see that anywhere. Could you point out where it says all these events are foreordained for a specific millisecond in the vastness of Time?
I can agree that such things are part of foreordain. However, I see no evidence to say they are for a specific moment with in Time. They just might happen at any given time. The very definition of chance.
Just like when you roll the dice. Only what is possible will happen. That doesn't mean that everything possible will happen.
Quote:Ecclesiastes 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time (to every purpose under the heaven). This is the theme re-iterated throughout the chapter. That God is in total control, but these purposed events will unfold as unexpected to us but yes, ultimately used for good to those who belong to him.
In fact, SEASONS aren't about a specific millisecond in time.
For example. There is a time to die. That doesn't mean I'll die tomorrow because its my time to go. It just means I'll eventually die in my season. It might happen tomorrow. It might be late in the season. Some of it might fall withing chance. Then again, it might not.
Quote:Chance as defined by God in this text, is our perception of many of the unexpected events which will inevitably, fall upon all of us. For some reason, no matter what I try, my posts are sticking together instead of being separate boxes. I'll catch on...hopefully ~
When you edit the post, hit the last icon on the bottom toolbar. If you hover over it, it will say "View Source". You can then manually edit the quote tags and etc. I do it sometimes when I have much to tag...
Thanks for the conversation!